Organized Crazy Addicts

[Zed]

Please keep all insults or stupid comments out of here, aside from that post whatever you want.

Just think about what you are saying first. I feel this post is appropriate because this issue has an impact on each and every one of our lives, sure we are brought together by a game, but this is reality, and we are all grown up enough to discuss serious issues as well. If you can't think of something intelligent to say, then don't say it.

To start off........

I am fully behind the decision of the United States, we as a country voted the President in, by voting him in, we should back those decisions made by the people who are in power of each of our respective countries. There is probably a ton of information that the public will never see.

I believe even though some might not agree with the decision made to go to war, we should be united as one country, if not for the cause, the for the people who are fighting for us, our neighbors, brothers, sisters, relatives, etc.... On 9-11 the country came together to support NYC and Washington D.C, why would it take an act of violence against america to have the support of its citizens and the support of other countries, but when it comes to "preventing" future terrorism, the world becomes divided.

Also we have to remember that the news and media skews ALOT of the information, for example: 12 americans and 4 british soldiers lost thier lives in a helicopter crash on the IRAQ border, at the time it was not known what the cause was. This was on every news channel in the US.

But on the flip side how many innocent Iraqi citizens have lost their lives? I haven't seen one statistic. Realistically I understand there are going to be casualties of war, but I think the public deserves to see both sides of the story, instead of just showing missiles destroying buildings, it makes it seem a bit like a game almost, because the news portrays it as just a building being blown up, but in reality there are many people in those buildings.

Those are some of my thoughts right now.

[LeeBe]

This was posted in a ...different forum. The guys a loser but ive never saw a post as well written and concise as this one on the matter of the war.

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I can forgive alot of people here for the stupid things that have been said here since most of you sound like your in highschool or College, but when you grow up you'll become a republican. Want to know why, because after awhile you learn that being an idealist in the REAL WORLD will get you nowhere. If you honestly think Saddam is a good guy and that he won't ever do anything bad, why does he have the weapons then, and I have a bridge I have to sell to you.

One Point I'd like to bring up, it isn't about Oil, American's would never let this war happen if we thought it was, we controlled all of iraq in 1991 if we wanted the oil then we could of had it when the first Bush has an 85% approval rating. All the countries cockblocking us have signed Multi-billion dollar deals with Iraq.

I know alot of you are too young to remember this but after the First war, iraq was given exactly 45 days to disarm, Yes you heard right exactly 45 days to disarm at the end of the war, Fastforwad twelve years, and four months later, where are we now? Finding weapons that wern't declared in a ten-thousand page document supposedly announcing every weapons program and armmament possible. Now I don't know about you, but I particularly don't like being jerked around, and I tend to know when it's going on, If you like being jerked around go ahead.

Another point raised was that Bin laden and Saddam arn't connected, I think there's alot of underhanded dealing between the two orginizations but that's just me, I tend to think bad people will help other bad people, Akin to the Comic book villians who hate each other, teaming up mometarily to take down the superhero. I could care less however if Saddam and Bin laden were fucking each other in a cave right now. Saddam is a bad man, andh as started three wars. He has murdered 1.5 million people many including his own people. This war was never just about Al-qaeda it is about Terrroists, Supporters of terroists, and fianciers. now if you don't think Saddam is a terrorist your mistaken, someone who has murdered 1.5 million people and has had people in his own family killed is a terroists, his people even now live in fear of him. You can be sure after the war tons of stories will come flooding in about him.

France has been an obstruction to the entire process, they had promised Collin Powell at one point that they would authorise use of force to go in, but now you see them rejecting the U.S.'s and British's 18th resolution out of hand BEFORE Iraq even got a chance to. Does that say anything to you, that maybe these people arn't doing it in principal, and for power and money. I know alot of europeans hate to hear it but, America and it's values are moral, and we belive a war has to be moral to engage in it, I think taking down a murderer is a good use of my tax money, rather that funding some lazy people who don't want to employ themselves sitting around collecting checks and funding such projects as seeing if jet engine noise affects children's hearing. I also think money is better spent on us then sending people to the U.N. I would pull out of that god-forsaken body of Ill-contemps and kick them into the New york Harbor.

The leauge of nations became irrelevant for the exact same things that are happening now, history is repeating itself and some people are blind, or want to be blind to that fact. This is indictive to the sort of brainwashing that goes on in some foreign countries, Report only one side of a conflict or news, many reports in france only tilt to one side all the time, when you only hear one point of view it starts to sink in, that's why many kids when they go to college become some radical whacked out leftist, until they wake up. By only hearing one side you start to belive in it, and when it's been going on for years. That's why there's an anti jew sentiment in Europe. They report only the plight of the poor palestinians, despite the many chances given to them by the Israelis, A little known fact here is that 90% of all contested Palistinian land is in other Arab countries, why only Isreal are they focusing on, doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand why, because they know the anti-jew sentiment in Europe still exists and they can exploit it. It's also a very good way to dsitract the people away from why the palstiians are suffering is because of their poor leadership, no schools, no infrastructure. Just teaching kids how to rig bombs and blow themselves up, you think a society like that can last?

No one here can contest that Saddam is a good guy, No one can contest that he hasn't broken Numerous security council mandates from the U.N., no one can contest that he has started three wars, and has killed millions of people and caused economic ruin because of it. So what is your contestion to not go in, honestly? More time to be jerked around is all I hear. Nothing else, no well reasoned out arguments. No sign of him actually complying, which was the last chance for him to do, Not last chance for the inspecters to play Columbo, because Iraq was to hand over the weapons not for the inspectors to find the weapons. History will judge this though, and I think it will show that America was on the right side in this ordeal when they see the thigns france and other's have provided a murderer. I expect to see alot of childish responces to this and unreasoned un well though out replies, this is common to people who have no real posistion on this other than hey let's screw them over because I hate them or are jealous.

[Zed]

that was a good post lee.

I was wondering about one issue. All the countries in the EU, if those countries are divided over the war, how does that affect day to day life in the EU?

what are the consequences (if any) of some countries going against others, etc...

[LeeBe]

My thoughts exactly

[Fenerli]

I would write a lot of stuff, but my english is bad.

So therefor, i want to express my feelings with following sentences.

LeeBee, you have written, Saddam is bad , because he has a lot of weappons. Then Bush must be the worst, because he has most of the weappons.
With this war, USA will kill one Saddam, but USA will create tausends of Saddams around the world and with your tax Bush will kill a lot of innocent peopple. USA is not the police of the world.
Why we have UN ?

Iraq War 1 --> G. Bush !!!!
Iraq War 2 --> G . W . Bush !!!!

This familie want only war !

Saddam is bad, but Bush is not better !

Sorry, but this is my opinion and i'am very sad that you are for a war against IRAQ !


Fenerli

[roba]

No one is probably happy from any war, but I believe that there was no other solution for Iraq problem. Hussein is killing his own people, and is dangerous for the world (weapons, terrorism). IMO diplomacy cant do anything with this sort of dictator and only possible solution is power. World should be glad that there are countries which are willing to do what needs to be done and have the power to do it.

Also as Zed said, US and UK governments has probably much more informations that they passed to public and I have no reason to dont believe them - so if they say that Hussain has weapons of mass derstruction, than I believe them. I dont get WHY some ppl believe rather to mass-killer Hussein than to governments of biggest democracies in the world.

BTW Scud missiles fired on Kuwait is STRONG evidence that Hussein was lying to the UN inspectors, and that Iraq is violating UN resolutions. How much other weapons he was lying about?

About causalities. Yeah some innocent people will probably die. Its bad, but how much innocent ppl is dying every year of Hussein's totality? Total number of ppl killed by Hussein is somewhere aroud 1.000.000 - 1.500.000 . He is at government cca 25 years? So thats around 50.000 people killed EVERY year of his tyranny. Causalities of this war will be probably few hundrets.

I hope that war will be quick and Hussein will be defeated with a minimun loss to the allied forces and iraq civilians.

[roba]

[LeeBe]

Im not happy about any war but sometimes things need to be done, no-matter how bad they are. You cant say he wasnt given enough chances for a peacefull solution.

Some more facts I found...

IRAQ

Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, and Missile Capabilities and Programs[1]
Nuclear[2]
With sufficient black-market uranium or plutonium, Iraq probably could fabricate a nuclear weapon.

If undetected and unobstructed, could produce weapons-grade fissile material within several years.

Engaged in clandestine procurement of special nuclear weapon-related equipment.

Retains large and experienced pool of nuclear scientists and technicians.

Retains nuclear weapons design, and may retain related components and software.

Repeatedly violated its obligations under the NPT, which Iraq ratified on 10/29/69.

Repeatedly violated its obligations under United Nations Security Council (UNSC) Resolution 687, which mandates destruction of Iraq's nuclear weapon capabilities.

Until halted by Coalition air attacks and UNSCOM disarmament efforts, Iraq had an extensive nuclear weapon development program that began in 1972, involved 10,000 personnel, and had a multi-year budget totaling approximately $10 billion.

In 1990, Iraq also launched a crash program to divert reactor fuel under IAEA safeguards to produce nuclear weapons.

Considered two delivery options for nuclear weapons: either using unmodified al-Hussein ballistic missile with 300km range, or producing Al-Hussein derivative with 650km range.

In 1987, Iraq reportedly field tested a radiological bomb.

Biological[3]
May retain stockpile of biological weapon (BW) munitions, including over 150 R-400 aerial bombs, and 25 or more special chemical/biological Al-Hussein ballistic missile warheads.

May retain biological weapon sprayers for Mirage F-1 aircraft.

May retain mobile production facility with capacity to produce "dry" biological agents (i.e., with long shelf life and optimized for dissemination).

Has not accounted for 17 metric tonnes of BW growth media. <-----WTF????
May possess smallpox virus; tested camelpox prior to Gulf War.

Maintains technical expertise and equipment to resume production of Bacillus anthracis spores (anthrax), botulinum toxin, aflatoxin, and Clostridium perfringens (gas gangrene).

Prepared BW munitions for missile and aircraft delivery in 1990-1991 Gulf War; this included loading al-Hussein ballistic missile warheads and R-400 aerial bombs with Bacillis anthracis.

Conducted research on BW dissemination using unmanned aerial vehicles.

Repeatedly violated its obligations under UNSC Resolution 687, which mandates destruction of Iraq's biological weapon capabilities.

Ratified the BTWC on 4/18/91, as required by the Gulf War cease-fire agreement.

Chemical[4]
May retain stockpile of chemical weapon (CW) munitions, including 25 or more special chemical/biological al-Hussein ballistic missile warheads, 2,000 aerial bombs, 15,000-25,000 rockets, and 15,000 artillery shells.

Believed to possess sufficient precursor chemicals to produce hundreds of tons of mustard gas, VX, and other nerve agents.

Reconstructing former dual-use CW production facilities that were destroyed by U.S. bombing.

Retains sufficient technical expertise to revive CW programs within months.

Repeatedly used CW against Iraqi Kurds in 1988 and against Iran in 1983-1988 during the Iran-Iraq war.

An extensive CW arsenal–including 38,537 munitions, 690 tons of CW agents, and over 3,000 tons of CW precursor chemicals–has been destroyed by UNSCOM.

Repeatedly violated its obligations under UNSC Resolution 687, which mandates destruction of Iraq's chemical weapon capabilities.

Not a signatory of the Chemical Weapons Convention.

Ballistic missiles[5]
May retain several al-Hussein (modified Scud-B) missiles with 650km range and 500kg payload.

May retain components for dozens of Scud-B and al-Hussein missiles, as well as indigenously produced Scud missile engines.

Maintains clandestine procurement network to import missile components.

Reconstructing missile production facilities destroyed in 1998 by U.S. bombing.

May possess several hundred tons of propellant for Scud missiles.

If undetected and unobstructed, could resume production of al-Hussein missiles; could develop 3,000km-range missiles within five years; could develop ICBM within 15 years.

Launched 331 Scud-B missiles at Iran during the Iran-Iraq war, and 189 al-Hussein missiles at Iranian cities during the 1988 "War of the Cities."

Developing Ababil-100 with 150km range and 300kg payload, flight-testing al-Samoud with 140km range and 300kg payload, and producing Ababil-50 with 50km range and 95kg payload.

Cruise missiles[6]
C-601/Nisa 28 and HY-2 Silkworm with 95km range and 513kg payload.
SS-N-2c Styx with 80km range and 513kg payload.
Exocet AM-39 with 50km range and 165kg payload.
YJ-1/C-801 with 40km range and 165kg payload.

Other delivery systems[7]
Reportedly converting L-29 jet trainers to unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for delivery of BW or CW.

May possess spraying equipment for BW dissemination by helicopter.

Experimented with MIG-21 as unmanned delivery vehicle for BW.

Fighter and ground attack forces may total 300 fixed-wing aircraft, including Su-25, Su-24MK, Su-20, Su-7, MiG-29, MiG-25, MiG-23BN, MiG-21, Mirage F1EQ5, and F-7.

Ground systems include artillery and rocket launchers, notably 500+ FROG-7 artillery rockets and 12-15 launchers, with 70km range and 450kg payload.


Precise assessment of a Iraq's capabilities is difficult because most weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs remain secret and cannot be verified independently. Although inspections by UNSCOM and the IAEA's Iraq Action Team provided detailed information about past Iraqi programs, assessing Iraq's current capabilities is difficult due to its policies of denial and deception, and to its expulsion of UNSCOM inspectors in November 1998.

[roba]

[[EEM]Don_Elmaro]

hi m8s
I found a side of a "wannabe in baghdad person" dont know if he really is
but its worth reading. i cant stand this cnn propaganda anymore
make ur own opinion if u like http://dear_raed.blogspot.com
i try to find some neutral news sides and put it here if u like?
cu Don

[Tempus]

Some people forget that america was attacked first, they are only preventing what WILL happen if they leave saddam alone, he will attack kuwait(sp?) and he WILL most probibly attack other countries like the usa, uk etc etc again.

Its abvious that saddam tlaks BS and he deserves this war, when the weapons inspectors were in they said, and found no SCUD missiles and iraq denied having them, then what was fired at kuwait last night by iraq???? SCUD MISSILES

i know i may sound heartless by saying this but i think saddam deserves everything he gets, hes been given numerous chances, but blown them all.

as for the UN, well i have to say i am disapointed with france.... they want this war like others, but they keep saying no to it, any proposals that were put forward about the war france would just VETO it, it totally takes away the point of having the UN if a country can VETO a suggestion. They are just thinking of themselves when it comes to after the war, show to iraq and other countires that they dont want the war (tho in truth they do) so that they wont be a target or as bigger target for terrorists.

[Zed]

During late July of 1990 Saddam built up his military forces on the border with Kuwait. At 1:00 a.m. on 02 August, three Iraqi divisions of the elite Republican Guard rolled over the border.

[[EEM]Don_Elmaro]

this is getting really onesided cant accept that
Did u know that the us supported saddam first, it supported bin laden first its not like u zed say that the us is always the brave WHITE KNIGHT.
And as u said it is all about economics (oil)
why dont they attack north korea(there is no oil and they have nukes)?
Why did the us first support the taliban and now.........
There is a pipeline running through afghanistan or (they want to build one cant remember) could that be the answer to the interests the us and russsia had in that region???????
Next Thing the US dont do anything against world environmental pollution they didnt underwrite or left the Conference on Climate Change in Kyoto so please dont tell us how brave the us administration is cause i cant hear it anymore and i cant stand that worldpolice thing either.
Zed the world is not black or white it sometimes is very grey so please try to read between the lines and dont trust everything the massmedia are telling us.
And last i am happy to life in a country where i can go out and sit in a park having a nice cold beer without being arrested by the police.
hope that u are not pissed off with me zed but i had to write that down

[roba]

[Fenerli]